Havent used the Saint yet but Ive been drooling over it ever since I saw it. AR-15 solutions in rifle, SBR, and PCC configurations. Took it home, cleaned the barrel and put 600 rounds thru it with no problems that day. The Standard Issue M1A is a faithful semi-auto recreation of the original M14. Caution You risk injury or death by mishandling firearms. Theres been a steady evolution with Springfield Armorys product line to the point where the Illinois-based firm is now manufacturing some of the worlds most-advanced firearms geared to personal protectors and tactical shooters. Luckily, a fellow gun writer was on the next range, testing the Edge he had. Loaded with features from top to bottom, the XD-S Mod.2 is a slim single stack pistol perfect for concealed carry. Look closely at the specifications list on the Springfield Armory website and see the detail differences. The Victor lists for just a bit over $1,000, and youll be able to score one at your local gun shop for less, for sure. and feature an upgraded trigger. My .308 is not a Saint but a Savage MSR Hunter AR10 and Im very happy with that gun, I also had the same gun in 6.5 Creedmoor but that gun had issues so I sold it. Combining the performance of a larger handgun with class-leading concealability and capacity. I am a vet, but the last long gun I fired with any regularity, was my M16A2 in 1990. Lightweight and agile rifle solutions that come packed with enhanced components selected for rugged durability. Specifications: Weight: 6 lbs. The stock is BCM Gunfighter Mod O, and the trigger guard and grip also are from Bravo Company. Its not free-floating, but it is worlds beyond USGI for ergonomics and utility. Took it to the range Sunday. But I did put a Franklin Armory Binary trigger in her and she will rock! It ships with a Magpul brand magazine. You are using an out of date browser. Both shoot exceptionally well, and I paid far less than they typically go for. Great AR-15 and got her for about $889.00ish at Cabelas. The Springfield Armory Saint Edge ATC is very comfortable and very stable. Exceptional rifles at exceptional prices. At just over 6 lbs. 5.56. barrel) gas port location from seven out to nine inches. Hello Everyone, I hope to attach this question to this thread, instead of starting a new one. For shooters who like to research the fine details, the compare tool allows you to select and compare multiple firearms side by side. Loaded with features from top to bottom, the XD-S Mod.2 is a slim single stack pistol perfect for concealed carry. trigger but made with better fitting and tolerances for a 5 pound Crisp pull. Note: There is a sizable model-option list across the whole Saint line, and Im going to focus primarily on the basic carbine, simply called the Saint. On the buffer tube, Springfield has installed a Bravo Company stock for the Victor. The Edge has a hand stop on the end of the handguard, a good idea since your forward hand is going to be near the noisy end. Unlike many AR rifles on the market today, SAINT Victor Rifles feature a pinned low profile gas block, a must have on a professional use defensive rifle. There is longer rifling in the barrel of the handgun currently on my hip than there is in this PDW. Can confirm, held one in the store just last week. Each Loaded model brings you all the custom features you want but without a custom shop price tag. A few more upfits but still room for mods. These chemicals can be in the products that Californians purchase, in their homes or workplaces, or that are released into the environment. Founded by Frank Galli in 2000, Snipers Hide has been offering informational videos, podcasts, and other support to its users in one location. Thats a huge help! The Hide Armory. It is accurate,reliable and light. But from the second you pick one up, you know it's different. Battle Proven. On the Saint Edge pistol, they use a Maxim Defense CQB brace. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Try adjusting your selection. The legendary 1911 with modern double-stack capacity. At 6 lbs., 3 oz., this lightweight powerhouse came to get down. The Shooter's Log, is to provide informationnot opinionsto our customers and the shooting community. Springfield Armory Saint Edge. The barrels are both 1/8-inch twist for use with heavyweight bullets. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. The victor is a step up from saint. Combining portability with superior ballistic performance. The handguards are free-floated, with M-Lok slots, and, underneath the guards, the gas block is low-profile and pinned in place. Magazine release from the left side was a little easier if pressure was applied more toward the rearward edge than over the center of the button. Combining portability with superior ballistic performance. Think of a sling as a holster for your rifle (or pistol, in the Edge) and you will be safer. The Edge features a machined billet lower receiver with attractive lightening cuts, a proprietary high-performance muzzle brake, adjustable pinned gas block, and much more. Premier components for quick-handling, improved accuracy, and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing much more. Either way, same applies except for barrel length between the guns. Premium American-made bolt action hunting rifles. Proposition 65 requires businesses to provide warnings to California consumers about significant exposures to chemicals that cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. Unless I'm wrong. Now i just need to decide on a red dot and buis. It has a detail I am happy to see: SA properly stakes the receiver plate and castle nut. Lightweight and agile rifle solutions that come packed with enhanced components selected for rugged durability. PSA 18" FN CHF Geissele MK14 Upper+ vs Springfield Saint victor?? carbine, was highly manageable. I own several ARs and all shoot well. Put your money where it matters the SAINT rifle from Springfield Armory offers an outstanding value in an AR-15 with top-tier components selected for rugged dependability and relentless performance. Symptoms of excessive pressure are well known: extraction and/or feeding issues and general battering of the gun and its cartridge cases. Its a good-enough set of flip-style irons, 1/2 MOA adjustable; simple, sturdy. You really gotta play with them and look at the spec sheet. This protects those parts from corrosion and also reduces friction; as a result, the trigger pull on the Saint Victor is clean, crisp and easy to manage. I have the Edge. A 1911 with a host of duty-grade features. It's heavy. The Edge pistol doesnt have the boron coating, but the trigger pull is currently an improved single-stage, held in with locking pins. Second round, exactly the same thing. I am also fully aware that Springfield Armory is not the only source for good factory AR-15s, and also those at an equitable price point. Product specifications are subject to change without notice. Keep in mind that when were talking about AR-15s were talking about piecesparts more than we are a whole package. The official name of Proposition 65 is the Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986. If ammo wasnt so darned expensive now Id have thousands of rounds through it already. ADM for a hard use rifle with great but unnecessary customer service. Designed specifically for the 9mm cartridge, the EMP features shorter dimensions making it one of the smallest 1911s out there. Premier components for quick-handling, improved accuracy, and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing much more. Our Custom 1911 pistolsmiths have over 200 combined years of experience and individually hand fit every major component of your firearm. I have given up on that quest because they are all so good now that time is better spent learning to use them. Exceptional rifles at exceptional prices. Proposition 65 requires California to publish a list of chemicals known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. Now, since the Victor and the Edge are carbine and pistol, respectively, they have some differences. They got the parts right or got the right parts however you want to look at it. They have a number of barrel profiles and the choice between button cut or hammer forged barrels. Inspired by the original G.I. The SAINT offers upgraded features where they matter most. The legendary 1911 with modern double-stack capacity. It is the buyers responsibility to comply with all rules, restrictions and/or laws determined by your city or state. Magnetic particle inspection and high pressure testing ensure ultimate reliability. The saint pistol loaded with.30 caliber 200 grain bullets is extremely effective out to 150 yards. The most iconic battle rifle in American history. In both tactical and traditional forms, the SOCOM 16 will answer your call for a compact tactical rifle without sacrificing power. Springfield Armory Saint Victor. Versatile and adaptable, each SAINT Victor configuration delivers premium shootability at a great value. Springfield Saint Edge ATC 223 Wylde (223/5.56mm) Semi-Automatic Rifle with Accurized Tactic $799.99; In Stock Brand: Springfield; Item Number: STA918223B . No setscrews to work loose and cause gas problems. Loaded with features from top to bottom, the XD-S Mod.2 is a slim single stack pistol perfect for concealed carry. Springfield Armory dared to dream smallsuperlatively smallwith its new Saint Edge PDW, and what it does, it does well. The Saint Edge looks awesome, but it's $1400. We pondered it, and then had a light-bulb momentadjustable gas system. Thread starter Duck888; Start date Dec 21, 2019; Forums. Common to both Saints are Bravo Company pistol grips and full-length handguards with ample M-Lok slots for full-on accessorizing. Range Report: How Good Is the Smith and Wesson M&P FPC 9mm Folding Carbine? New to the ar world. The SAINT series is designed to offer shooters an AR rifle in 5.56mm or .308 thats just right for their needs. Combining rock-solid durability with eye-catching styling, the 7075 T6 machined billet lower receiver sports a flared magazine well for reloads, ambidextrous safety and integrated QD sling attachment system. Specifications: Weight: 6 lbs. I found that out when testing the Edge, and for some reason it would not cycle with light-bullet varmint loads. Its an AR-15 made by someone else. Offering lightweight and agile solutions in rifle, pistol, SBR, and PCC configurations, the SAINT Victor series comes packed with enhanced components selected for rugged durability. I think its a wonderful thing, though, because I will recommend this gun for a brand new (at least new to AR-15s) owner. Springfield Armory is a major maker. On the Victor, you might want to go with a 1-4X or 1-6X variable scope. My trigger group looks traditional as well. The Accu-Tite Tension System is a generous adjustable setscrew that ensures there is absolutely no play between the upper and lower receivers for unassailable accuracy. It may not display this or other websites correctly. I know this is not top of the line AR build, but I would like to know what I should be looking to replace for good performance. And of course, notice the retail-detail differences! Home defense, general plinking and small game hunting: it's easy. Required fields are marked *. Springfield Armory Saint 916556B: Average velocity: 2738 fps: 2726 fps: 2756 fps: Muzzle energy: 999 ft.-lbs. . Now I did swap out the birdcage muzzle brake for a VG6 and installed my optics of choice, but really thats it. Please be respectful of others. I just purchased a Panther DPMS Oracle 223/5.56. its probably 1300+/- Victors seem more available at around 1100+/-. Springfield Armory Saint Victor SAINT Victor rifles are designed to be masterpieces of performance and precision. Premier components for quick-handling, improved accuracy, and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing much more. The most iconic battle rifle in American history. What is new about it, though, is that they got it right. 3 oz. Combining the legendary power and accuracy of the M1A with the quick handling and fast sight acquisition of a scout style rifle. Combining the legendary power and accuracy of the M1A with the quick handling and fast sight acquisition of a scout style rifle. Each SAINT Victor features enhanced components carefully selected for professional grade defensive firearms. The Edge lists at just over $1,500, which is unbelievably reasonable for such a package. Inslee signed a punitive ban on many common semi-automatic firearms. Its an all around nice AR-15 for the mid cost ARs. The Emissary bridges the best features of defensive and custom pistols. Proposition 65 became law in November 1986, when California voters approved it by a 63-37 percent margin. That to me is just to much work. Bravo Company furniture all around. The same iron sights are also available direct from Springfields website. Another nice touch on the Springfield Saint is that, like that URG-I, the gas block is pinned in place, not just affixed with set screws. Changing a buffer spring is no big deal, an easy swap. I just want something thats as close to perfect out of the box as you can get. One model features a pinned, picatinny railed gas block and includes a Springfield Armory low-profile flip-up front sight. # of Mags: 1 Rate-of-Twist: 1-in-8" Sights: Flip-Up Dual Aperture Rear Additional Info: SA Multiport Muzzle Brake Additional Info: Bravo Company Mod3 Pistol Grip Additional Info: Free Float HG w/SA Lock Tabsck, The Springfield Armory Saint Victor .308 is designed in an AR-10 platform. Please ensure you are up-to-date on all current laws regarding your purchase. Adjustable gas blocks allow. A traditional M1A, loaded with all the features you want to take your rifle to the next level. The Saint Edge features premier components for quick-handling, improved accuracy, and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing much more. The regular V11 is definitely going to need a trigger upgrade. Proposition 65 became law in November 1986, when California voters approved it by a 63-37 percent margin. SAINT AR-15 Rifles Exceptional rifles at exceptional prices. At just over 6 lbs. It works. SAINT Victor AR-15 Rifle, B5, Low Capacity. MSRP $1,150 - $1,497. As always, higher-rev is higher cost. Parts are straight off the recommended list, as Saint uses an M16-profile USGI-spec bolt carrier group with a select Carpenter 158 bolt. Premier components for quick-handling, improved accuracy, and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing much more. The SAINT offers upgraded features where they matter most. In both tactical and traditional forms, the SOCOM 16 will answer your call for a compact tactical rifle without sacrificing power. The SAINT Edge combines a bevy of premier quality components into a custom-grade 5.56 NATO at a price lower than it would cost you to build it yourself. There's also the Saint Edge, Saint Free-Float and Saint Victor models, each available as carbine, short barreled rifle (SBR) or pistol and the Victor can be a .308 Win. The forged upper and lower receivers on the carbine, and the forged upper and billet lower on the Edge, are tensioned for a snug fit, by means of the SA Accu-Tite system. One more thing you dont have to buy, but would otherwise! JavaScript is disabled. Have adequate ventilation at all times. Exceptional rifles at exceptional prices. Premium American-made bolt action hunting rifles. Springfield Armory Saint Victor. (We mourn for you.) Sets the standard for ergonomic comfort and performance. The 1911 Ronin combines a legacy of service with the features modern shooters demand. All my buddies always want to use it iver their AR-10s. There are things some shooters will want. Average group: 0.6 in. Inducing stress into even a simple shooting routine will reveal weaknesses in your approach and force you to focus and adapt. I used to obsess over iron sights and for a long time searched for the best ones. By requiring that this information be provided, Proposition 65 enables Californians to make informed decisions about their exposures to these chemicals. Each Loaded model brings you all the custom features you want but without a custom shop price tag. All rights reserved. It is a good, smooth trigger, just not what was advertised. MSRP $1,023. All comments are held for moderation and will appear after approval. And we would ask, Whats NEW about it? Dead silence. If you can even find an Edge. Inspired by the original G.I. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. For example, a regular length charging handle will not fit in my Saint. Battle Proven. Anyhow, but that size optic, on either the carbine or pistol, would have been unrealistic. It has a 16-inch chrome moly vanadium barrel with a 1:8 inch twist rate. Only difference is barrel and stock or pistol grip in this case. (Details forthcoming). MSRP $1,150 - $1,497. The regular V11 is definitely going to need a trigger upgrade. When I think of factory-built premium AR-15s, my first thought is Wilson Combat. From the SAINT to the SAINT Victor to the SAINT Edge tiers, there is a SAINT rifle for you. Can't go wrong with DD either IMO. Victor 5.56 and .308 are both a beast. However, I have not shot the edge. Barrel is Chromemoly Vanadium, Melonite coated inside and out, 1:8 twist and a NATO chamber. You can go wrong with this platform whatsoever. The most iconic battle rifle in American history. The Standard Issue M1A is a faithful semi-auto recreation of the original M14. Select a few firearms first to compare them. The rifle has an adjustable stock, M-LOK handguard attachments, etc. Available in 5.56, .308, and now 9mm, there is a SAINT Victor configuration perfectly suited for your application. Some makers do, so Springfield is to be commended for getting it right. All rights reserved. The extractor is destroying the casing when it fires so it has nothing to grab on to in order to extract. I know this would have been of interest to me when I was deciding which 16" Saint rifle to go withtwo parts: Something doesnt sound right? Feels good. The proprietary Springfield Armory Modular Match Short Reset Single Stage trigger reflects the state of the art in tack-driving fire control systems. Developed in conjunction with retired U.S. Army 1st SFOD Delta combat veteran Larry Vickers. It took me awhile to figure out why it wasnt fitting, but I discovered that the channel on the inside of the top of the upper reciever, that the charging handle goes into, is shorter than standard by just enough the Milspec charging handle wont fit. If there is anything you do not understand, seek advice from someone qualified in safe handling of firearms. The Bravo Company PKMT handguard on each goes the full length of the barrel, up behind the flash hider mounted at the muzzle. Proposition 65 also prohibits California businesses from knowingly discharging significant amounts of listed chemicals into sources of drinking water. If there is anything you do not understand, seek advice from someone qualified in safe handling of firearms. Things went from bad to worse for Washington state gun owners on April 25, when anti-Second Amendment Gov. Geez. The Saint Edge features premier components for quick-handling, improved accuracy, and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing much more. Inside their upper receivers, both Saints receive an M16, full-weight carrier and a proof-tested bolt that has been shot-peened for stress reduction. . Forged in the fire of disciplined craftsmanship. This thing is light, fun, reliable, accurate and easy on the eyes. It may not display this or other websites correctly. 990 ft.-lbs. 9 MM 5.56 .308 WIN MSRP $1,150 - $1,497 SAINT Edge AR-15 Rifles Premier components for quick-handling, improved accuracy, and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing much more. The carbine version, the base Saint, has a mid-length gas system. Try adjusting your selection. Step Right Up Building on the core of the SAINT rifle we kindly invite you to explore the upgraded SAINT Victor line of AR style rifles. For hunting, shooting sports and home defense because I live out in the country Lightweight and agile rifle solutions that come packed with enhanced components selected for rugged durability. the Edge is one of the lightest AR-15s on the market, featuring a patent-pending free float handguard and billet receiver with lightening cuts for effortless operation. Have you tried the Edge or the DD V7? Daniel defense chrome lined barrels are some of the best. Got the desert tan one, brand new in 2017. Springfield Armory Saint Edge L. Common to both Saints are Bravo Company pistol grips and full-length handguards with ample M-Lok slots for full-on accessorizing. Combining modern materials and design with a heritage spanning back more than a century. Have you used the Springfield Saint? Sets the standard for ergonomic comfort and performance. The Emissary bridges the best features of defensive and custom pistols. (Not present on 9mm Carbine). Then grab a lower and roll. The most premium SAINT in the lineup, the Edge features a billet receiver paired with premier components for quick-handling and improved accuracy and is comparable to custom builds costing much more. The bolt is composed of 9310 steel (a very good steel for this application), and the complete carrier group has also been Melonite-treated for corrosion resistance and durability. Our engineers studied real-world defensive scenarios and designed a SAINT Victor perfectly suited for each challenge. Lead Ammunition Discharging firearms in poorly ventilated areas, cleaning firearms, or handling ammunition may result in exposure to lead, a chemical known to the State of California to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm. Specifically I am talking about the Victor and Edge pistols. The M-Lok slots allow you to mount an embarrassingly large number of optional items onto the handguard. Also in common, the carbine and the pistol have Bravo Company Gunfighter Mod 3 pistol grips featuring a sharper-than-normal down-angle from the axis of the bore. Proposition 65 requires California to publish a list of chemicals known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. The TRP is based off the custom Professional Model HRT 1911 developed by Springfield Armory for the FBI. With solutions in rifle, pistol, SBR, and PCC configurations, each SAINT Victor is built to professional standards for unrivaled performance. Sorry, but the edge is it's own animal. window.PixleeAsyncInit = function() {Pixlee.init({apiKey:"D9gKCa4iiyIe5iWAbR33"});Pixlee.addSimpleWidget({lightbox:true, widgetId:2096912});}; Back to the start: Springfield Armory chose a good build sheet for the Saint. So are there any issues shooting 5.56 out of a 7" barrel ? Combining modern materials and design with a heritage spanning back more than a century. It's a very fun rifle to shoot. One of the reasons for that is because theres usually something (and often a long list of some things) that I would have wanted to be done differently. (No QD end plate on CA models). In test-firing, both the Victor and the Edgeonce I had the gas system opened up a bitcycled 100 percent with all ammo tested. The Victor is an update to the old freefloat. Developed in conjunction with retired U.S. Army 1st SFOD Delta combat veteran Larry Vickers. All rights reserved. SAINT Edge AR-15 Rifles. Both have pinned gas blocks, with the Victor featuring a mid-length gas system. Give yourself the Edge. My thought would be to use the 556 for target and 300 defense. The Victor's barrel has a 1:8 inch twist, and the upper and lower are both made from 7075 T6 aluminum. 5.56 MSRP $1,023 SAINT Victor AR-15 Rifles Lightweight and agile rifle solutions that come packed with enhanced components selected for rugged durability. This is not your lightweight, casual AR-type plinker. I currently own a Diamondack DB15 7.5 inch and the ATI OMNI Hybrid 7.5 inch..I was wondering if youd do a review of the ATI OMNI? Not that the Edge cant reach out (if your skills are up to it), but you are giving up a certain amount of muzzle velocity, what with its 3-inch shorter barrel. Lightweight and agile rifle solutions that come packed with enhanced components selected for rugged durability. Needed a cleaning rod to clear the spent casing. and our I have the Saint Victor & The Saint pistol 9.5 Greater safety when shooting, greater comfort when not. The Edge has a flash hider, as a muzzle brake on a barrel that short would be worse than obnoxious. All good. One by-product of this . Thanks for all the input. Sorry, no products match that criteria. Let us know in the comments below. Product specifications are subject to change without notice. The Edge is a fine rifle and I may buy it back but the DD will be a little more accurate from my experience. The combination of the mid-length gas system and the heavy buffer make a Saint very soft shooting. The SAINT offers upgraded features where they matter most. Find a Retailer. Product specifications are subject to change without notice. Battle Proven. To be clear I am not talking about the Victor Carbine. His cycled the varmint loads. Purpose built, each SAINT Victor features our free float M-Lok handguard and performance upgrades for professional grade reliability. 3 oz. Inspired by the original G.I. Its official, Biden and Harris are seeking a second term. The Springfield Saint is backed up well by people who really truly want you to enjoy your (their) firearm. So, no wobble. Step Right Up Building on the core of the SAINT rifle we kindly invite you to explore the upgraded SAINT Victor line of AR style rifles. The highest capacity micro-compact 9mm in the world. The Saint series was introduced in 2016. A traditional M1A, loaded with all the features you want to take your rifle to the next level. Combining the performance of a larger handgun with class-leading concealability and capacity. I just bought one of these in the pistol version Friday afternoon. What Is the Springfield SAINT Edge PDW? Our Custom 1911 pistolsmiths have over 200 combined years of experience and individually hand fit every major component of your firearm. Sets the standard for ergonomic comfort and performance. BangBang Professional Apr 19, 2020 #3 Sounds like an extremely tight chamber? The carbines stock uses a mil-spec-diameter buffer tube. I wont go into details unless you want me to. Sgt. For more information, please see our The Edge has: SOPMOD stock instead of slim; lighter and shorter trigger (Victor has a milspec trigger); billet, lightweight lower with beveled magwell; "Enhanced" instead of "Sport" BCG; pencil profile barrel; adjustable gas block; full-length top pic rail; and an amazing muzzle brake. It seems like in today's market most Ar15's over the 900 price range are going to be good. A 1911 with a host of duty-grade features. The Emissary bridges the best features of defensive and custom pistols. Sets the standard for ergonomic comfort and performance. Worlds better than a stock USGI. Shopping with us is absolutely safe - you never have to worry about credit card safety when shopping here Share your latest AR build or photos from the range with #RangeDayFriday for a chance to win a new firearm! Combining the legendary power and accuracy of the M1A with the quick handling and fast sight acquisition of a scout style rifle. The Victor carbine has a muzzle brake on the end because that is the fashion these days, not because the recoil of .223/5.56 is so vicious. Well, youll likely want a few more, but Magpul is good. Get one of any of these Saints and you wont be disappointed. The XD set the new industry standard for comfort, ease of operation, features and performance. This list, which must be updated at least once a year, has grown to include approximately 900 chemicals since it was first published in 1987. In the same way, the Saint is an AR-15 made by Springfield Armory. Designed specifically for the 9mm cartridge, the EMP features shorter dimensions making it one of the smallest 1911s out there. I think the Victor has a 7.5" barrel and the Edge has a 10.5' barrel. This is coming from a guy who had build 5 AR15 rifles in 5.56,.224, 6.5 grendel, 6.5 creedmore, 6.8spc. On a whim I bought a Saint pistol in .300 blk out. Children are attracted to and can operate firearms that can cause severe injuries or death. Have adequate ventilation at all times. Forged in the fire of disciplined craftsmanship. 2. The SAINT offers upgraded features where they matter most. The 1911 Ronin combines a legacy of service with the features modern shooters demand. Established name, good reputation, simple sights already attached and a lifetime warranty.you want more? We reserve the right to edit as appropriate, delete profane, harassing, abusive and spam comments or posts, and block repeat offenders. Purpose built, each SAINT Victor features our free float M-Lok handguard and performance upgrades for professional grade reliability. Designed for ultimate performance the SAINT Edge is the product of elite engineering with premier components and upgrades comparable to custom-built ARs. If I was running a barrel that short it would be 300 BO. It was tough to part with that much money for a weapon until the first trigger pull. Product specifications are subject to change without notice.
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